Keeper's Quest

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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by Kelenas on Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:18 pm

Psyckosama wrote:It takes more than a day for a dungeon heart to fill
Fair enough, though I don't think we should just let the mana go to waste, either.

How long does it take for the heart to fill, though?
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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by Psyckosama on Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:28 pm

Kelenas wrote:
Psyckosama wrote:It takes more than a day for a dungeon heart to fill
Fair enough, though I don't think we should just let the mana go to waste, either.

How long does it take for the heart to fill, though?

Few days to a week depending on how much area you've claimed.

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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by ShaperV on Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:49 pm

Kelenas wrote:Honestly? Let's not sweat the details too much. I think the basis we can all agree on is that we are interested in sponsoring her and basically forming an alliance, but need to know more details before we can fully commit. Sound about right to you?

Agreed. We'll want to learn a bit more about her situation before making any promises, but it does look like like a good opportunity. As I see it, in the short term she can offer us local connections, an information network and a little bit of on-call muscle that's known to other factions in the town. We can offer her money, on-call heavy firepower, prestige, instant evacuation (for anyone who becomes a minion), and a place to retreat to if they ever get run out of town by a more powerful faction. Getting involved with her gang will inevitable draw us into the local power struggles in the settlement, but that could actually be a good chance to knock off some minor targets and establish a more solid power base.

OTOH, the fact that we're keeping her sister as a minion is going to weigh pretty heavily on her mind. In the long run she's either going to go all-in and volunteer to become one of our minion-bonded officers, or try to work some scheme to 'rescue' Tesha from us. It'll be up to us to make sure she ends up deciding to go with the first option instead of the second.

One mistake we do want to avoid is being overly generous with the terms of our deal. Being too harsh would be a bad signal, but being too affable will leave her thinking we're a fool she can use to her own benefit and then betray at the first convenient opportunity. People with a background as harsh as hers tend to be pretty ruthless about that kind of thing by necessity. So we want to set things up so she feels like she's having to work hard to get our support, but it's worth it because of all the opportunities it opens up for her.

At this point I'm really happy the early vote ended up making Seth a people person instead of a socially-awkward nerd...

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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by Kelenas on Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:55 pm

Yeah, his social skills are definitely extremely useful.

In regards to Tesha, we could make it part of the deal to release her Minion-bond and instead hire her "normally", but it's important to keep in mind that the bond isn't unbreakable. If Tesha really wanted to leave us she'd be able to do so, and I think Nati might know it; she seems well informed enough for it.

Regarding immediate evacuation, we can go with the suggestion Gnarl made when we brought up the problem about not being able to handle our Goblins via our Keeper-powers because they weren't bonded, and hand out charms infused with our power. Should also be easier to hide than a fully-fledged minion-bond, too, and not cause any controversy about us trying to steal her gangmembers, as charms are easier to get rid of than tattoos or full bonds.
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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by ReinZero on Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:14 pm

ShaperV wrote:
Kelenas wrote:Honestly? Let's not sweat the details too much. I think the basis we can all agree on is that we are interested in sponsoring her and basically forming an alliance, but need to know more details before we can fully commit. Sound about right to you?

Agreed. We'll want to learn a bit more about her situation before making any promises, but it does look like like a good opportunity. As I see it, in the short term she can offer us local connections, an information network and a little bit of on-call muscle that's known to other factions in the town. We can offer her money, on-call heavy firepower, prestige, instant evacuation (for anyone who becomes a minion), and a place to retreat to if they ever get run out of town by a more powerful faction. Getting involved with her gang will inevitable draw us into the local power struggles in the settlement, but that could actually be a good chance to knock off some minor targets and establish a more solid power base.

OTOH, the fact that we're keeping her sister as a minion is going to weigh pretty heavily on her mind. In the long run she's either going to go all-in and volunteer to become one of our minion-bonded officers, or try to work some scheme to 'rescue' Tesha from us. It'll be up to us to make sure she ends up deciding to go with the first option instead of the second.

One mistake we do want to avoid is being overly generous with the terms of our deal. Being too harsh would be a bad signal, but being too affable will leave her thinking we're a fool she can use to her own benefit and then betray at the first convenient opportunity. People with a background as harsh as hers tend to be pretty ruthless about that kind of thing by necessity. So we want to set things up so she feels like she's having to work hard to get our support, but it's worth it because of all the opportunities it opens up for her.

At this point I'm really happy the early vote ended up making Seth a people person instead of a socially-awkward nerd...

You could be more generous if you make it seem like we're thinking quite hard... and striking rather long term benefits for ourselves... while in short term it'd seem to benefit them more.

@ Kelenas

Just keep Tesha on minion bond... or so. Liaison between both groups. Well, at least for now. Later... we'll consider removing it and hiring on more normally. This is strictly because, there's a limit to how generous/soft we can be about it. Though on the other hand, no we're not bonding the whole gang or most of it... if any, except ones Nati does well, propose. Said bond does work helpfully as well as not depending on how you look at it for their end due to their lacking of a Keeper backing presently while others do.

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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by ShaperV on Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:18 pm

Kelenas wrote:In regards to Tesha, we could make it part of the deal to release her Minion-bond and instead hire her "normally", but it's important to keep in mind that the bond isn't unbreakable. If Tesha really wanted to leave us she'd be able to do so, and I think Nati might know it; she seems well informed enough for it.

Yes, I know. But I think we're much better off keeping Tesha bonded if we can work an amicable deal that way. Eventually we'll want Nati bonded as well, and seeing her sister living happily as our minion will go a long way to easing her doubts about that.

Kelenas wrote:Regarding immediate evacuation, we can go with the suggestion Gnarl made when we brought up the problem about not being able to handle our Goblins via our Keeper-powers because they weren't bonded, and hand out charms infused with our power. Should also be easier to hide than a fully-fledged minion-bond, too, and not cause any controversy about us trying to steal her gangmembers, as charms are easier to get rid of than tattoos or full bonds.

Interesting idea. I like it.

You know, I think we're probably going to want to devote Seth's next block of training time to learning about the various types of bonding magic available (both theory, and the spells involved). The ability to create, break, hide and manipulate loyalty bonds could be amazingly useful, and there's no telling what else could be done with that sort of magic.

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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by Kelenas on Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:30 pm

ReinZero wrote:@ Kelenas

Just keep Tesha on minion bond... or so. Liaison between both groups. Well, at least for now. Later... we'll consider removing it and hiring on more normally. This is strictly because, there's a limit to how generous/soft we can be about it. Though on the other hand, no we're not bonding the whole gang or most of it... if any, except ones Nati does well, propose. Said bond does work helpfully as well as not depending on how you look at it for their end due to their lacking of a Keeper backing presently while others do.
Not bonding the gang. Giving them charms infused with our energy/power/whatever. It lets us affect them with some of our Minion-specific Keeper-powers, like "grabbing" and "dropping" them for quick transportation, without actually making them minions or bonding them to us.

Gnarl suggested either Charms or Tattoos as a solution when we mentioned the problem after our hunt for Jevrin, and is capable of crafting those charms.

ShaperV wrote:Interesting idea. I like it.

You know, I think we're probably going to want to devote Seth's next block of training time to learning about the various types of bonding magic available (both theory, and the spells involved). The ability to create, break, hide and manipulate loyalty bonds could be amazingly useful, and there's no telling what else could be done with that sort of magic.
We haven't even started any serious magic-lessons beyond our Keeper-powers, yet. Give it some time. Wink
Thankfully we can set our body to do some physical conditioning while we study.
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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by Robotninja on Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:55 pm

Ugh. We have several entirely new fields of study to catch up on.

On the other hand, we have a huge edge on everyone in the world with regards to Science later on.

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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by Deathwings on Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:00 pm

Robotninja wrote:Ugh. We have several entirely new fields of study to catch up on.

On the other hand, we have a huge edge on everyone in the world with regards to Science later on.
Don't put too much hope in that. There is nothing that say that the local law of physics are identical to out own, unfortunately.
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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by Robotninja on Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:04 pm

I feel that it is probable that at least some of our vastly advanced by several hundred years knowledge will be useful here. Gunpowder works. Get some good craftsmen under minion bonds, have them start making guns.

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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by Kelenas on Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:06 pm

Actually, so far everything we've seen seems to check out, we know that gunpowder/blackpowder exists and is used in weapons/bombs.
The dwarves are also capable of creating various mechanical contraptions like steam-powered armor and the like.

If we can get our hands on someone with the necessary knowledge, there's a lot of stuff we can do.
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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by Deathwings on Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:13 pm

So, Steampunk tech is possible at least, good to know.

Hey, Psyko, did Seth hang out with the nerds enough to know how to build a computer out of scrap metal ? Razz
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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by Psyckosama on Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:25 pm

Deathwings wrote:So, Steampunk tech is possible at least, good to know.

Hey, Psyko, did Seth hang out with the nerds enough to know how to build a computer out of scrap metal ? Razz

Sorry, but you're not this guy...


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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by Kelenas on Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:29 pm

Y'know, now that I'm thinking about it, this update does raise a question... does either the Over or Underworld have any contraceptives? And if so, did Seth use any when he slept with Serena or Araleth...?
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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by Deathwings on Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:39 pm

Psyckosama wrote:
Deathwings wrote:So, Steampunk tech is possible at least, good to know.

Hey, Psyko, did Seth hang out with the nerds enough to know how to build a computer out of scrap metal ? Razz

Sorry, but you're not this guy...


Laughing

As for the contraceptive issue, doesn't Serena WANT a kid ?
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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by Robotninja on Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:51 pm

Kelenas wrote:Y'know, now that I'm thinking about it, this update does raise a question... does either the Over or Underworld have any contraceptives? And if so, did Seth use any when he slept with Serena or Araleth...?
Magic. There. Because children would seriously derail the quest, likely.

That's one reason why I want to gain some DK style trolls eventually. We need traps and we want to be able to start bootstraping up an industry. We should ask Mentor about if it is possible to learn how to program new Rooms into a heart. It is likely really, really, hard, but if we can program in power plants and factories, well. . .

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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by Kelenas on Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:58 pm

[quote="Deathwings"As for the contraceptive issue, doesn't Serena WANT a kid ? [/quote] From what I remember, yes.

Robotninja wrote:Magic. There. Because children would seriously derail the quest, likely.

That's one reason why I want to gain some DK style trolls eventually. We need traps and we want to be able to start bootstraping up an industry. We should ask Mentor about if it is possible to learn how to program new Rooms into a heart. It is likely really, really, hard, but if we can program in power plants and factories, well. . .
Don't think it's quite that simple, and I honestly don't think kids would derail the quest. (And let's not forget one entry in the Evil Overlord List.)

As for bootstrapping an industry, chances are we'll have much more success once we've either taken over a town like Skid Row, or we've hired an inventor/mechanist who could actually build some kind of manufacturing-machine.
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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by Godogma on Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:00 pm

Find a DK style troll, have him build you lengths of pipe - Tesha's already said she knows how to make both corned and uncorned powder...

A good strong pipe a touch hole and a stock and slow match can all be cobbled together without ANY skill at all in gunsmithing and will still increase your ability to deal death without taking a whole lot of time or energy from anyone involved.

With a bit of skill (and trust me DK Trolls have plenty of skill since they're the best craftsmen you have access too unless you can suborn dwarves in DK1 (if I recall correctly - it's Bile Demons in 2?)) you can make full fledged breech loading black powder rifles without too much more effort.

As long as you can make the mental leap - and Seth doesn't have to, someone else has made it for him he already knows how it's done.

But on the topic at hand; I vote for the minion charms so it's not a permanent bond which might give Nati the willies at this point and support them via funds and arms and armor (when we have the manufacturing capability to do so) and before long after they've been the recipient of healing spells and the like or been snatched out of situations they couldn't handle themselves they'll start WANTING the full minion package.
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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by Carrnage on Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:30 pm

Doe's Seth know what rifling is? because if he know all he needs is to hire n experienced smith/bellfounder/craftsman and he can try and create a few primitive guns
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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by Godogma on Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:32 pm

Rifling isn't primitive - what I was describing was primitive. All rifling really does is add to the spin of the bullet imparting more long range accuracy - at the ranges he's likely to find underground he's not going to need that all that much until he makes it above ground and goes to taking over places if he chooses to.
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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by ShaperV on Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:47 pm

Meh. The whole 'use modern knowledge to make tech and win!' angle is badly overdone, and not especially practical. In a world with both magic and monsters, low-tech firearms are way too much trouble to be worth bothering with. No to mention that the locals apparently already know about guns, so if they don't use them there's probably a good reason for it.

We're much better off looking for ways to munkin the magic rules of the setting. Seth has the creativity of millions of nerds to draw on when it comes to spell research exploits, and being a DK means he already has a lot of power to work with.

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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by Godogma on Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:51 pm

Yes but his minions DON'T and guns are a great equalizer - they don't require much training and have more punch than a man portable crossbow. Especially when you consider how long it would take to re-arm a crossbow of equal power.

There is a reason why people stopped using both bows and crossbows as well as armor on the battlefield and decent firearms were that reason.

EDIT: And we have no information that suggests they know about guns - we have information that they have black powder BOMBS. It's two different technological paths and two different mindsets. Though grenadiers are also a decent idea; riflemen are much better in general. Not only do they have a much larger payload they're more accurate and timing devices on low tech grenades leave much to be desired.
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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by Ironforge on Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:54 pm

Why not just go the easy route and give our minions bombs?
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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by Godogma on Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:01 pm

Bombs are more inherently dangerous; a fireball could turn the minions into walking bomb vest guys while they're in the midst of the rest of our minions.

Also their range is entirely muscle powered and unless we have clockwork fuses of some sort the fuses are problematic; they're essentially slow match devices. Though the idea of imps or some crazy goblin running up wearing what is essentially claymore mines built into a vest is pretty amusing.

Rifles/muskets/pistols on the other hand have good range and death dealing potential for our enemies.
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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by Ironforge on Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:06 pm

Well then why not just give are minions D&D style wands then as they can work better the guns and with the amount of magic we can throw around easy enough to make. Plus, this way we start making them as soon as we learn how to make or recharge wands.
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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by Godogma on Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:09 pm

"As soon as we learn how to make or recharge wands"

And you think that's faster than finding a troll that knows how to make a length of pipe? Your logic is mind boggling. We already have the resources we need for the guns; the wands require yet another expenditure of time on Seth's part or on a warlock's part that he doesn't have. Also however much time it takes to make them which he then couldn't assign to a minion he'd have to do himself.
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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by Ironforge on Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:12 pm

Well the idea was more for fitting in the setting easier then for power right now and really wands will be vastly more useful then early fire arms. Both because we can change want kinds of death that can shoot out and because they would be easier to use an handle then fire arms.
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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by Psyckosama on Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:14 pm

You could always ask directly you know.

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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by Godogma on Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:15 pm

Gun powder is already in the setting in the form of bombs and traps; I don't see it destroying the setting to craft low tech firearms to go with it.

Low-Tech firearms are quite simple... Point and squeeze.

As for wands being easier to handle that's debatable and they're also much more easily broken than the guns in question.
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Re: Keeper's Quest

Post by Ironforge on Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:15 pm

Psyckosama wrote:You could always ask directly you know.

Ask about wands or fire arms?
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