Setting the Itinerary

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Re: Setting the Itinerary

Post by Gear on Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:14 am

consequences wrote:Hey, pop quiz, how many people have ever been in an gantry crane intended for port container operations? You know, the ones where the top mounted engine room has lockers, and usually some form of crappy mattress in a corner so people can try to crash for a bit during long operations somewhere out of the frikking winds you get at 200 feet off the ground without having to climb 200 feet down a damned ladder only to have to climb back up the danged thing 2 hours later when your next union-mandated turn at the controls comes around?
I envisioned a cot, some shelves, and a minifridge. What was written gave the impression of a large room, with multiple closet sized lockers so overweight reservists could easily hide inside.

Far more that would be needed for 2 or 3 people for constant driving of the crane.

The giant lockers just completely killed it for me. Then having him survive a 200 foot fall in a collapsing crane, then being thown around by a battlemech just brought it back to life as a zombie, to kill it for me again when he just popped up, ran to the mech, climbed it like a spider monkey, and then cut through the back door despite Hale trying to shake him off, and capturing it.

The drug interaction thing was basically "violating" the corpse of whatever positive feelings I ever had for post crane Dansel.

I actually put a significant amount of thought into that scene and the layout of the engine room in question, and it's especially aggravating to have it dismissed out of hand by people who don't even properly reference the story thread to do so. At most I could be accused of using dramatic license to ensure that the individual lockers were actually large enough to fit a human body for the follow up scene.
You should feel bad of what you turned Dansel into. In fact, the difference between pre and post crane falling is so great, post crane Dansel is really a Dansel In Name Only.


As to surviving being overly lucky, Kai Allard frakking Liao on Alyina. That is all.
Kai is at least physically fit enough to escape his deadly situations, and has a history of badasse and luck to back him up.




NZSAS can be easily substituted, that was never intended to be insulting to anyone's sensibilities, simply a case of them not actually being in the right place at the right time. NZAS would have been over wherever the hell they're normally supposed to be and presumably responding to the Hermes supporting the pirate grunts, not running around a port ensuring that their gear wasn't 'lost' because they had just arrived for ye old multi-national training shindig. Not that I actually give half a crap about insulting anyone's sensibilities mind you, but if Dansel is going to by consensus be removed from the story there's no point in keeping the low intensity prank war going anyway.

The prank war was also vastly overdone and rather tacky.

I liked Dansel, he did his duty, did something awesome, and died riding the top of that 200 foot crane to pin that mech down.

Dansel In Name Only on the other hand, I can't stand. I always skipped the DINO parts after the first few of them. It's also why I never liked the Legion either.
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Re: Setting the Itinerary

Post by Knobby on Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:18 am

Edited my previous Dansel timeline post to include URLs for the relevant story thread posts, now that the forum privileges now allow new accounts to post external links right away.
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Re: Setting the Itinerary

Post by Gear on Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:09 pm

Sorry about the rant, but DINO just cranks my gears.

I am willing to accept it if he lives, injured or not. I just don't want to see him ever again.
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Re: Setting the Itinerary

Post by Trace Coburn on Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:51 pm

consequences wrote:NZSAS can be easily substituted, that was never intended to be insulting to anyone's sensibilities, simply a case of them not actually being in the right place at the right time. NZAS would have been over wherever the hell they're normally supposed to be and presumably responding to the Hermes supporting the pirate grunts, not running around a port ensuring that their gear wasn't 'lost' because they had just arrived for ye old multi-national training shindig. Not that I actually give half a crap about insulting anyone's sensibilities mind you, but if Dansel is going to by consensus be removed from the story there's no point in keeping the low intensity prank war going anyway.
a] When I said 'a little bitter', I meant 'I find that irksome', not 'that drives me into uncontrollable fits of NERD REAG'. Wink Part of that is because...
b] you're right, and part of my being irked comes from the story-posts coming so fast back then that any piece I might have written at the time about why the Kiwi Sass were elsewhere was vastly overtaken by other events. Sad I may still end up writing that explanation into Second Auckland as a retrospective fill-in, when/if that piece ever gets finished.
c] Dansel's a fun character in measured doses, both pre- and post-crane, and indeed I enjoyed all of the pieces you contributed to the original BTRR; similarly, the prank war had a certain charm for a while. That said, I think Gear's got a point about how both gags got a little worn-out over time. Neutral
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Re: Setting the Itinerary

Post by consequences on Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:31 am

There are snippets that I would be entirely fine with trimming or eliminating entirely because looking back I feel (more than)slightly ashamed about having written them, and am entirely willing to figure out how to remove unessential bits. If the call is for less Dansel in the future, that is easy to oblige.

In the grand scheme of things, changing the AuSAS to NZSAS doesn't change much that matters. Worst case the prank war can be switched to one between the US Army Transportation Corps and the NZSAS without much practical effect, or entirely dropped. Partially that was a lack of awareness of the finer details of ANZAC armed forces back when we started this thing.


As to the engine room, until I actually was near one, I had no frame of reference to the roughly 20x 30x 15 room that is needed to drive a thousand-plus tons of metal at truly slow speeds on rail tracks. Well, the whole room isn't needed as such, but it's helpful if you want to be able to get at the engine from any angle for essential maintenance and repairs without contorting yourself into barely possible positions, and unlike naval vessels or combat vehicles there's not much reason to keep the space as compact as possible. If anything building bigger adds more of the essential counterweight needed to balance a 50-80 ton load suspended under the whole lifting apparatus several hundred feet offshore.


As to Kai vs Dansel, how physically fit does one have to be to survive getting punched off a cliff by a seven foot tall borderline superhuman after a prior beating? How fit do you have to be to survive going off a cliff under another mech to implausibly have your descent halt before reaching the 84 meter crush depth? How does being physically fit affect your abiliity to survive what is essentially a building collapse? As a side note, it is entirely possible to have too many muscles to pass the basic crappy US military body fat test as long as your neck isn't thick enough. This wasn't actually the intention with Dansel, but the immediate jump from 'being flagged by weight control' to 'completely out of shape' is kind of annoying.


Concerning other matters, Red Rabbit was actually written, or at least published, two years after Bear and the Dragon, and was a blatantly hamhanded retcon to shove Ryan into a historical Cold War situation that adds essentially nothing to the series except to take shots at British Health Care and try to say 'haha we always new the Soviet Union was going to implode like a bitch'. It's also essentially impossible to reconcile with the 2005 ISOT, we would have to go with a 1997ish, or even a 1993 extremely fucked up Clancy timeline in order for it to work.

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Re: Setting the Itinerary

Post by Trace Coburn on Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:44 am

consequences wrote:Concerning other matters, Red Rabbit was actually written, or at least published, two years after Bear and the Dragon, and was a blatantly hamhanded retcon to shove Ryan into a historical Cold War situation that adds essentially nothing to the series except to take shots at British Health Care and try to say 'haha we always new the Soviet Union was going to implode like a bitch'. It's also essentially impossible to reconcile with the 2005 ISOT, we would have to go with a 1997ish, or even a 1993 extremely fucked up Clancy timeline in order for it to work.
You'll get no argument from me: AFAIK, An Entry with a Bang writers have always ignored the events of Red Rabbit, and IMO the story was far better off for it.
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Re: Setting the Itinerary

Post by Knobby on Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:45 am

RR was, admittedly, kinda clunky, but is it really going to be much of an issue here? IIRC the only one involved in it that's also given any importance in this fic is Ryan himself, and he's certainly not going to be talking about it. He takes classification issues deadly serious, and I don't recall any mention of the defection being declassified in canon Clancy. It certainly hasn't passed the 50 year mark that's usually the declassification point for stuff that's going to eventually make it to the public (by design at least, not counting leaks like those done by Kealty's minions of Ryan's Red October or Colombia activities).
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Re: Setting the Itinerary

Post by Norgarth on Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:33 pm

A couple things you may want to consider:

1) sketch out is a rough timeline. for example if you want CEarth to be able to make their own jumpships by 30XX, and feel that it will take them Y years to develop it, then 'first contact' has to occur by (30XX - Y years) at the latest.

working out how long it takes CEarth to start producing their own Fusion engines/dropships/primative Jumpships/Jumpships/'Mechs/ASFs/PA and BA/ect may help cut down on later arguments and editing.

2) you may want to make (and sticky) a list of tech and when CEarth develops them: (relatively) quickly/in a decade/2 or 3 decades/over 3 decades/only with a lot of help from IS sources/never.

People can still write about research on stuff in the Never catagory, it just means that they'll never get any effective/non-theoretical results regardless of how much time/money/resources is poured into said project.

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Re: Setting the Itinerary

Post by Gear on Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:04 pm

Tech scheduling will depend greatly on what we bring back from Columbus, Helm, and New Dallas.

So we're going to need to get those ducks lined up in a row before we can determine when we start rolling jumpships out.
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Re: Setting the Itinerary

Post by Psyckosama on Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:32 pm

Gear wrote:Tech scheduling will depend greatly on what we bring back from Columbus, Helm, and New Dallas.

So we're going to need to get those ducks lined up in a row before we can determine when we start rolling jumpships out.

It will also depend on industry. No matter what, Jump Ships will take decades...

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Re: Setting the Itinerary

Post by Psyckosama on Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:05 am

Along other lines, it is acceptable for you guys if you'd like to start migrating the story over and open other discussion threads...

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Re: Setting the Itinerary

Post by Gear on Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:25 am

I've got no problems with that plan of action.
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Re: Setting the Itinerary

Post by madbob on Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:06 am

Neutral you may have answered this one and I just missed it, are you and/or others going to review submissions before posting and where do you submit potential entries?
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Re: Setting the Itinerary

Post by Knobby on Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:37 am

Neither has been addressed yet, though the review thing already existed for things as they were going on before this forum was created. Whether that review system will be revised or not is another issue.

I don't think we're quite up to the point of taking actual submissions just yet, though, so it's not quite a "top of the list" priority.

And BTW, Psycho, is there a way of fixing the forum flood control so it doesn't apply to edits of existing posts? That's kind of annoying... Razz


Last edited by Knobby on Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Setting the Itinerary

Post by Gear on Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:41 am

I imagine a story review thread will be made where submissions will be posted for review and beta'ing, with final approval/rejection being in the hands of the authors themselves.
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Re: Setting the Itinerary

Post by Knobby on Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:16 pm

Assuming my continuing to look into this forum isn't just a waste of time, reading the SB forum I think there's one thing that should be established in the rework: You tech, you lose.

I'm not saying to totally ignore the technology, but the obsession with getting down to gnat's-ass explanations for every bit of tech that's been going on in the other forum hasn't done anything but contribute to endless bitch fests that do nothing for the story.

(Though, I suppose I could just stop reading the tech threads, and do my blood pressure a favor... Razz )


Last edited by Knobby on Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:35 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : hyperbole trimmed)
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Re: Setting the Itinerary

Post by Gear on Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:16 pm

That's a good point.

But tech is a rather significant part of both franchises.

What are our limits to be?

Just things mentioned in the books? Tech that wasn't produced due to budget cuts like the Comanche stealth copter?

What about existing technology combined in new ways?

I am personally in favor of throwing out a lot of the theoretical tech that hasn't had so much as a prototype unit built in either universe.
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Re: Setting the Itinerary

Post by Knobby on Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:24 am

Well, I think a good starting point would be to accept the tech in both franchises as described, with a strong emphasis on fluff over the hard numbers. I know some insist on there being a hard explanation based on known RL physics, but I'd be willing to bet that 9 out of 10 people (WAG) don't give a flying fuck about the physics of it, they just want to see the titular hardware of this forum kicking much ass (and getting it kicked, naturally).

Beyond that? I'm not sure off the top of my head, though your suggestion on theoretical tech does strike me as a good idea. It's easy to theorize this or that technology, but until you put it to hardware it's just daydreaming with more math involved.
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Re: Setting the Itinerary

Post by Norgarth on Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:54 am

Something else to consider in the rewrite, showing more action durring the pirate invasion. Pirate landings outside the US were barely mentioned let alone shown.

Also maybe start working on what we want to be found by the Columbus mission.

I can easily see the team finding a bunch of ASF and vehicals, and maybe mechs. Specificly ones that were abandoned durring the Exodus because they weren't operable.

For example, say the team finds 30 ASFs; mabe 9 of them are 'flightworthy', with only 2 or 3 of those being even vaguely combat ready (Meaning you 'could' take it into combat, but they are already short on armor, some of the heatsinks aren't working and we're not sure if insert-weapon-here is actually working or not)

So after shipping those ASFs back to CEarth they eventually end up with maybe 10 patchworked ASFs and a pile of common spare parts for them, and a few more that are in good enough shape for testing purposes.

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Re: Setting the Itinerary

Post by madbob on Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:35 pm

Norgarth wrote:Something else to consider in the rewrite, showing more action durring the pirate invasion. Pirate landings outside the US were barely mentioned let alone shown.

Also maybe start working on what we want to be found by the Columbus mission.

I can easily see the team finding a bunch of ASF and vehicals, and maybe mechs. Specificly ones that were abandoned durring the Exodus because they weren't operable.

For example, say the team finds 30 ASFs; mabe 9 of them are 'flightworthy', with only 2 or 3 of those being even vaguely combat ready (Meaning you 'could' take it into combat, but they are already short on armor, some of the heatsinks aren't working and we're not sure if insert-weapon-here is actually working or not)

So after shipping those ASFs back to CEarth they eventually end up with maybe 10 patchworked ASFs and a pile of common spare parts for them, and a few more that are in good enough shape for testing purposes.

good point about the other landings, I imagine that there are a lot of possible stories out there...

I thought the basic idea for Columbus was great, but in reading it went into a strange area of story...

and the ASF idea is cool, that would mean CEarth would start a merc like aerospace operation, as in a constantly jury-rigged, hope it flies this time kind of thing, if written right could be cool...
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Re: Setting the Itinerary

Post by Norgarth on Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:12 pm

madbob wrote:good point about the other landings, I imagine that there are a lot of possible stories out there...

I thought the basic idea for Columbus was great, but in reading it went into a strange area of story...

and the ASF idea is cool, that would mean CEarth would start a merc like aerospace operation, as in a constantly jury-rigged, hope it flies this time kind of thing, if written right could be cool...

Yeah, looking back, finding dozens of mint condition ASFs was pretty mary-sue-ish. Though I doubt CEarth would feild such ASFs as a merc force, they need as many as they can get ahold of for their own defence/use.

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Re: Setting the Itinerary

Post by Knobby on Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:19 pm

Madbob didn't mean to deploy them as mercenaries, but that GDI's nascent ASF arm would face the logistical nightmare that is the support system for mercenaries that don't have a government to back them (and some times when they do have one backing them, like the Combine before "Death to Mercenaries" OTL). Cannibalizing whatever wrecks they come across, constantly being short of more specialized gear, and all that.
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Re: Setting the Itinerary

Post by Psyckosama on Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:11 pm

Think we should advertize this place better over on the SB forum?

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Re: Setting the Itinerary

Post by Gear on Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:24 pm

The story seems to be entering a lull even on SB.

I don't think we'd get anyone from over there unless somebody post's an actual snippet to get this rewrite started.

I'm trying to bring people another way by working on a set of BROB rules to use the forum's dice function for gaming, which seems like a better idea to get new people over here.
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Re: Setting the Itinerary

Post by madbob on Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:50 pm

sorry for jump starting thread again,

I have an idea about seting up two threads, one for the main story line. This would be approved parts that mainly keep to the story. I said mainly because you want to let in the occaisional odd story to keep people awake. Sometimes a little funny/quirky piece can bring in people who wouldn't normally do any long term reading. At least that's how it works for me.

The other thread would be for the writers who want develop more character driven stories, just giving them an area to work in will probably get the creative thoughts really going, to me, that kind of creative writting is kind of exciting to read ...
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Re: Setting the Itinerary

Post by Gear on Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:13 pm

It would help if someone actually wrote a snippet first.

The problem is, of the few authors that posted on this board, none still write for the roundrobing anymore, and I know my meager writing skill is not up to this task.
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Re: Setting the Itinerary

Post by madbob on Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:38 am

well excrement...I have a piece that I wrote for the other one called 'Landing', problem is that it is unfinished as it was rejected out of hand...is this going to be a rewrite from zero or are using some existing works?

Damn I'd love to something but like you my writing skills may leave a lot to be desired...

edit: ok I'll toss something out there, please be kind about my writing...


Last edited by madbob on Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:01 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add on)
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