Setting the Itinerary

I think we need to establish here and now, what do we do first.

I'm as Admin staying on as a mod, but we need to decide who else.

First think I will do though is anyone who is an author will be given special rights that allows them to moderate this forum.

At the risk of being accused of elitism or somesuch, any author at all, or those who have contributed X amount of work?

I ask because... well, to be blunt, I'd put more weight on what, say, [edit]Jonberry[/edit] said than what's said by WriterSchmuckatelli, who's contributed all of one short GNDN (Goes Nowhere, Does Nothing) piece.

(Me, I wouldn't really count my own contributions [the three O'Malley pieces, the Heinlein tribute, and the piece with Skip Tyler reviewing IS submarine options]. They're not quite GNDN, but they're not exactly core story components either.)

Knobby wrote:At the risk of being accused of elitism or somesuch, any author at all, or those who have contributed X amount of work?

I ask because... well, to be blunt, I'd put more weight on what, say, Jonboy said than what's said by WriterSchmuckatelli, who's contributed all of one short GNDN (Goes Nowhere, Does Nothing) piece.

(Me, I wouldn't really count my own contributions [the three O'Malley pieces, the Heinlein tribute, and the piece with Skip Tyler reviewing IS submarine options]. They're not quite GNDN, but they're not exactly core story components either.)

I'd say anyone who's made a meaningful contribution subject to the opinions of the other authors.

Psyckosama wrote:

Knobby wrote:At the risk of being accused of elitism or somesuch, any author at all, or those who have contributed X amount of work?

I ask because... well, to be blunt, I'd put more weight on what, say, Jonboy said than what's said by WriterSchmuckatelli, who's contributed all of one short GNDN (Goes Nowhere, Does Nothing) piece.

(Me, I wouldn't really count my own contributions [the three O'Malley pieces, the Heinlein tribute, and the piece with Skip Tyler reviewing IS submarine options]. They're not quite GNDN, but they're not exactly core story components either.)

I'd say anyone who's made a meaningful contribution subject to the opinions of the other authors.

How recent would that contribution have to be? The last major piece of 'accepted' writing I did for the BTRR was that 'first half' I wrote for the Second Battle of Auckland during the Pirate Invasion. Most everything else I said was discussion or ideas for snippets...

Depends, you intending to add more?

Psyckosama wrote:Depends, you intending to add more?

'Intending' is such a strong word - it's more like 'hoping'.
In an ideal world, I'd finish the Second Battle of Auckland, possibly including the little postscript scene I floated about the survivors being interned at Birdsville, South Australia, then chip in with other snippets as and when inspiration struck. Unfortunately, the protracted wrangling at SB.com in the meantime, not to mention some real-life developments, have drained my 'inspiration' reserves; in all honesty, I don't know if any of the above will ever happen. As I say, I'd certainly like to make a more substantial contribution....

I think a big thing we need to decide is if we're starting over again, keeping some of the already written snippets, or keeping it all and starting where the story left off.

And if we keep some parts, but not others, Where do we start?

I think a reedit and rewrite of some sections is in order. There's a lot of fat (and Dansel) that could be trimmed.

At the very least the Columbus segments need to be edited in light of later decisions on the actual items the CSN expedition recovered; that's going to be a major discontinuity point for new readers if it remains as it is.

Personally, and solely because of the differences between the canon book and the story as currently written I'd like to alter the early Helm pieces and delay the expedition's entry into the cache; however, anything concerning Helm is JonBerry's business, not mine.

There's all sorts of timeline fiddling that could be done. Helm could be pushed back. The ISOT as a whole could be moved up a couple of years without materially affecting much of anything, something that would help to keep C-Earth from having to do everything all at once, or the supposed date in the Clancyverse could easily be changed to accommodate one of the roughly seven different ways that Clancy's hamhanded efforts to keep current events current have made possible.

There's also a fair bit of codification and clarification that could be done with the way things are, both with regards to C-Earth and Battletech. For instance I am all for throwing out absolutely everything post-Bear and The Dragon as being raving idiocy, along with Red Rabbit for being a poorly thought out retcon. Then there's the question of how much of Clancy's worldview, most particularly the 'America F*** Yeah!' and 'UHC(among other things) F*** No!' we want to take as holy writ.

If we do go for rewrite, what about the segments written by authors who no longer wish to participate in the RR, "reboot" or otherwise? How much change can a piece get and still be considered what the original author wrote?

As for throwing out things of Clancy, since shortly after Bear is the break point from OTL Ryanverse ignoring what comes after that is fine, but I'm a lot more leery about throwing out things of the setting prior to that point that are "inconvenient". Part of crossovers is using the component universes as they're set up. If you're going to rewrite the existing material to satisfy personal preferences, why bother with using the setting in the first place? On the other forum MJ and several similarly minded people were concerned at various points about not respecting BT's settings, and as abrasive as they were, at times they did have a point that some weren't respecting the BT setting and wanted to arbitrarily change things prior to the point of change from OTL. So let's respect the previous Ryanverse setting too.

I believe we need to keep a chunk of the America, Fuck Yeah of the Clancyverse as its rather iconic of the setting. The more eye rolling tin foil hat straw man conservatism, I could see toning it down a notch or three. I also agree that we should, for the most part, ignore everything after the Bear and the Dragon. Most of those events would be invalidated by the change in the timeline anyways. Though it might be funny to have the Emir from the later books end up an anti-heroic protagonist who allies himself with the Free Azami rather than an Osama expy.

Even if we don't use any of the events after Bear & the Dragon, and from what I've heard of it, it's for the best, using characters from them is fine with me, as they're just names with some vague personality to them.

But Knobby brings up a good point. What about those authors who no longer wish to contribute to the RR?

Do we need to get permission from them to alter them into this new version of the story?

If we don't get them, will we need someone else to write new versions?

Gear wrote:Even if we don't use any of the events after Bear & the Dragon, and from what I've heard of it, it's for the best, using characters from them is fine with me, as they're just names with some vague personality to them.

But Knobby brings up a good point. What about those authors who no longer wish to contribute to the RR?

Do we need to get permission from them to alter them into this new version of the story?

If we don't get them, will we need someone else to write new versions?

I think an assumption of consent is safe. Assume its okay. If they say "no, remove it" cut it out.

Okay, posting is starting to lag behind, we need activity people if we want this to work.

I would have posted links to the story and reference threads, but apparantly new members can't do that for 7 days.

WTH?

Anyway, the setup of the story so far.

October, 4th 1957
ISOT occurs, Nobody notices.

May, 16th 2005/3020
Pirate Dropship Drakon jumps into Pirate Point over Earth.

May 17, 2005/3020
Drakon lands in, and attacks, Auckland, New Zealand
Dansel Drops a crane on Jankowscki's Stinger.

This seems to be the point where change needs to start coming in, beginning with Dansel.

How about the crash messes up his back and/or legs, forcing either a medical discharge, or the military to put him behind a desk so they can use him for PR efforts. Then he can just fade out of the story with a few occasional mentions before dissapearing entirely.

This brings up the question, who captures Hale and his Hunchback now?

One of the SAS guys that helped trap the Stinger?

Gear wrote:May 17, 2005/3020
Drakon lands in, and attacks, Auckland, New Zealand
Dansel Drops a crane on Jankowscki's Stinger.

This seems to be the point where change needs to start coming in, beginning with Dansel.

How about the crash messes up his back and/or legs, forcing either a medical discharge, or the military to put him behind a desk so they can use him for PR efforts. Then he can just fade out of the story with a few occasional mentions before dissapearing entirely.

This brings up the question, who captures Hale and his Hunchback now?

One of the SAS guys that helped trap the Stinger?

Or, alternately, he could survive Auckland as originally written, but then decide that he has burned up a lifetime of pure dumb luck, and gets out at the first opportunity. He already wasn't going anywhere rank-wise because of obesity, so it's not like he had a lot of incentive to stick around.

I know some people are insistent on maiming or killing him, but there are other options that don't have something of a scent of "revenge fic" to them.

Knobby wrote:

Gear wrote:May 17, 2005/3020
Drakon lands in, and attacks, Auckland, New Zealand
Dansel Drops a crane on Jankowscki's Stinger.

This seems to be the point where change needs to start coming in, beginning with Dansel.

How about the crash messes up his back and/or legs, forcing either a medical discharge, or the military to put him behind a desk so they can use him for PR efforts. Then he can just fade out of the story with a few occasional mentions before dissapearing entirely.

This brings up the question, who captures Hale and his Hunchback now?

One of the SAS guys that helped trap the Stinger?

Or, alternately, he could survive Auckland as originally written, but then decide that he has burned up a lifetime of pure dumb luck, and gets out at the first opportunity. He already wasn't going anywhere rank-wise because of obesity, so it's not like he had a lot of incentive to stick around.

I know some people are insistent on maiming or killing him, but there are other options that don't have something of a scent of "revenge fic" to them.

He was standing on top of a falling crane at least twice, probably three times as tall as a battlemech.

You do not get up and walk away from that.

Heck, he shouldn't be getting up ever again after that.

Gear wrote:He was standing on top of a falling crane at least twice, probably three times as tall as a battlemech.

You do not get up and walk away from that.

Heck, he shouldn't be getting up ever again after that.

Which would be a surprise to those (relatively few, admittedly) who have fallen from aircraft at many thousands of feet up without a working parachute and survived.

I'm not saying it's normal or likely, mind you, but it's not totally impossible. Just reaaaaaaly fucking long odds, hence "lifetime of pure dumb luck".

Knobby wrote:

Gear wrote:He was standing on top of a falling crane at least twice, probably three times as tall as a battlemech.

You do not get up and walk away from that.

Heck, he shouldn't be getting up ever again after that.

Which would be a surprise to those (relatively few, admittedly) who have fallen from aircraft at many thousands of feet up without a working parachute and survived.

I'm not saying it's normal or likely, mind you, but it's not totally impossible. Just reaaaaaaly fucking long odds, hence "lifetime of pure dumb luck".

Long odds? I'm pretty sure you're more likely to win the lottery, and then get hit by lightning while being mauled by a panda bear while Johnny plays you off while standing in the middle of the desert on a cloudless day.

Walking away with no damage after falling somewhere between 50 and 80 feet with a couple of hundred tons of sharp pointy metal is basically 'The Author said so' catergory of long odds.

Gear wrote:Walking away with no damage after falling somewhere between 50 and 80 feet with a couple of hundred tons of sharp pointy metal is basically 'The Author said so' catergory of long odds.

Because "The author said so" has never happened in either the Ryanverse or BT... *cough*MiddleEastPeace*cough* *cough*TyraMiraborg*cough*



[edit]
Less snarkily, if "horribly wounded" is how it winds up written I'll deal, but there are more options than just maimery. At least to those who haven't worked themselves up into a froth about a fictional character, anyway.

Gear wrote:This seems to be the point where change needs to start coming in, beginning with Dansel.

How about the crash messes up his back and/or legs, forcing either a medical discharge, or the military to put him behind a desk so they can use him for PR efforts. Then he can just fade out of the story with a few occasional mentions before dissapearing entirely.

This brings up the question, who captures Hale and his Hunchback now?

One of the SAS guys that helped trap the Stinger?

The Aussie SAS ones, you mean? That could work. Or, y'know, the New Zealand SAS, who just happen to be based in Auckland, could actually show up for this little party in their own backyard.
And yes, I am still kind'a bitter about that one almost four years later. By the time I got back on-line from one night to the next, the story had moved beyond the point where I could intercede and any NZSAS contribution was obviated by story-posts that had an overweight American reservist stealing all their thunder. Though the sequence where Dansel was tripping balls during the engagement was a little funny.

Knobby wrote:

Gear wrote:Walking away with no damage after falling somewhere between 50 and 80 feet with a couple of hundred tons of sharp pointy metal is basically 'The Author said so' catergory of long odds.

Because "The author said so" has never happened in either the Ryanverse or BT... *cough*MiddleEastPeace*cough* *cough*TyraMiraborg*cough*



[edit]
Less snarkily, if "horribly wounded" is how it winds up written I'll deal, but there are more options than just maimery. At least to those who haven't worked themselves up into a froth about a fictional character, anyway.

The problem is that Dansel was a decent character who did something awesome, then had a good end doing that something awesome.

Then he turned into the comic relief and basically undid the good writing and characterization that had introduced him. He became like a cartoon, what with magically teleporting into a locker, surviving not only the fall of the crane, being buried in it's wreckage, but being pulled out by a battlemech and thrown to the side.

Where upon he jumped out, climbed the mech and burned a hole in the door and captured it.

It didn't get much better afterward.

Basically, that last scene with the crane falling and he's saying his last words is where Dansel's involvement in this story needs to end.

Whether he survives or not, (I think we should leave it at those last words and then never mention him again.), he should never appear in the story again, with at most, off hand comments resolving his fate.

Trace Coburn wrote:

Gear wrote:This seems to be the point where change needs to start coming in, beginning with Dansel.

How about the crash messes up his back and/or legs, forcing either a medical discharge, or the military to put him behind a desk so they can use him for PR efforts. Then he can just fade out of the story with a few occasional mentions before dissapearing entirely.

This brings up the question, who captures Hale and his Hunchback now?

One of the SAS guys that helped trap the Stinger?

The Aussie SAS ones, you mean? That could work. Or, y'know, the New Zealand SAS, who just happen to be based in Auckland, could actually show up for this little party in their own backyard.
And yes, I am still kind'a bitter about that one almost four years later. By the time I got back on-line from one night to the next, the story had moved beyond the point where I could intercede and any NZSAS contribution was obviated by story-posts that had an overweight American reservist stealing all their thunder. Though the sequence where Dansel was tripping balls during the engagement was a little funny.

I was just going by the story. Since we're changing so much already, I'm sure that can be changed.

Gear wrote:Whether he survives or not, (I think we should leave it at those last words and then never mention him again.), he should never appear in the story again, with at most, off hand comments resolving his fate.

I never said that Dansel shouldn't go. At first I thought he was okay, but to me started getting wanky around the time of the second invasion of CEarth, and by the time of the Port Krin invasion I thought he had gone beyond redemption as far as plot goes.

If he's going to be sent away, I just want it to be more definitive than "never speak of him again" with an off-screen killing being his ultimate fate. The attitude he showed before getting wanked suggested to me that "okay, I did my part, now fuck this shit" wouldn't have been too far out of character for him.

On the subject of a non-Dansel AEWAB, as I recall more than a few bits involved him after the initial attack in NZ, and not all of them can just be cut out entirely if not going for "start from scratch". I'd have to read through the story thread to refresh my memory of how much he actually participated after NZ, but without going back to the proverbial square one it's probably going to be a lot more problematic than just "cut that shit out".

Rather than rewrite his fate or ignore him just have Dansel suffer an "accident"; in fact, have his reputation kill him -have Comstar or Samsonov arrange to have him assassinated just prior to the invasion of Antallos in an attempt to damage the GDI's morale.

Knobby wrote:

Gear wrote:Whether he survives or not, (I think we should leave it at those last words and then never mention him again.), he should never appear in the story again, with at most, off hand comments resolving his fate.

I never said that Dansel shouldn't go. At first I thought he was okay, but to me started getting wanky around the time of the second invasion of CEarth, and by the time of the Port Krin invasion I thought he had gone beyond redemption as far as plot goes.

If he's going to be sent away, I just want it to be more definitive than "never speak of him again" with an off-screen killing being his ultimate fate. The attitude he showed before getting wanked suggested to me that "okay, I did my part, now fuck this shit" wouldn't have been too far out of character for him.

Off screen killing? Dansel died on screen by standing on top of a collapsing crane and said his final words.

Then he got brought back to life as a sort of living cartoon by teleporting him from the top of the crane, to a locker room inside the crane. Why would a crane even have a locker room?

Go back and read it. He died, and this new character with the same name, but very different personality appeared afterward.

Dansel was perfectly written for what he was, and he should have stayed dead after his heroic sacrifice.

Not get resurrected as a cheap comedic side kick of the story.

It's like a character dragging a nuke into a mine to save a city, stands next to it as the nuke counts down to 1, the camera cuts away to show the mine collapsing, then the character shoving a few rocks aside at the mine opening.

It was terrible then, it's terrible now, and cheapens the entire story.

On the subject of a non-Dansel AEWAB, as I recall more than a few bits involved him after the initial attack in NZ, and not all of them can just be cut out entirely if not going for "start from scratch". I'd have to read through the story thread to refresh my memory of how much he actually participated after NZ, but without going back to the proverbial square one it's probably going to be a lot more problematic than just "cut that shit out".

Then we rewrite them. Cartoon Dansel is neither needed nor wanted in this story.

Hey, pop quiz, how many people have ever been in an gantry crane intended for port container operations? You know, the ones where the top mounted engine room has lockers, and usually some form of crappy mattress in a corner so people can try to crash for a bit during long operations somewhere out of the frikking winds you get at 200 feet off the ground without having to climb 200 feet down a damned ladder only to have to climb back up the danged thing 2 hours later when your next union-mandated turn at the controls comes around?

I actually put a significant amount of thought into that scene and the layout of the engine room in question, and it's especially aggravating to have it dismissed out of hand by people who don't even properly reference the story thread to do so. At most I could be accused of using dramatic license to ensure that the individual lockers were actually large enough to fit a human body for the follow up scene.


As to surviving being overly lucky, Kai Allard frakking Liao on Alyina. That is all.




NZSAS can be easily substituted, that was never intended to be insulting to anyone's sensibilities, simply a case of them not actually being in the right place at the right time. NZAS would have been over wherever the hell they're normally supposed to be and presumably responding to the Hermes supporting the pirate grunts, not running around a port ensuring that their gear wasn't 'lost' because they had just arrived for ye old multi-national training shindig. Not that I actually give half a crap about insulting anyone's sensibilities mind you, but if Dansel is going to by consensus be removed from the story there's no point in keeping the low intensity prank war going anyway.

I actually did review that scene a bit ago, and was about to point out the same thing.

Right now I'm compiling a list of the posts where Dansel is either present or mentioned, for the purpose of at least knowing what needs changing for his removal. Still working on it though, on page 8 of 10 for the story thread. I'll post the results here when I'm done.

And because I have bursts of OCDishness I completed the list, with brief summaries of the bits regarding Dansel. Since as a new member I can't post external links for another 3 days, barring a tweak of forum permissions y'all will have to wait for the direct links to the posts.

1: Dansel introduced, meets Aussie SAS to whom he explains they're short on everything but bodies.

3: Dansel in the crane, dropping a container on Jankowicz's Stinger.

14: Dansel regains consciousness after falling from the crane, wrapped in whatever cushioning stuff was available in the crane's engine room he used to ride out the collapse. Climbs up on Hale's Hunchback and cuts open the access hatch of a poorly maintained 'Mech.

16: Hale is told to exit the mech, or find out that people fare no better against a Molotov cocktail (which Dansel bluffed about) better than vehicles. Post-attack, a medic administers drugs that have an averse reaction that puts him into a manic state where he and his Oz SAS buddies vandalize the NZ SAS barracks. Dansel talks via teleconference with the POTUS, mentioning his advancement's pudge pause.

19: Move to Ft Irwin NTC, May 20 2005/3020. Dansel put on a PT regime to get him out of pudge pause, guarded by troops from NZ SAS reprisals for the earlier vandalism of their barracks. "Ding" Chavez asks for tips on piloting Hale's mech, dubbed Quasimodo by Dansel et al on the first guard shift in a ceremony only suggested at by the scene of the aftermath, and does some non-specific shooting the shit.

37: May 22, still at NTC. Dansel gets a more formal introduction to Hale, whom he warns about the NZ SAS having a serious hate-on for pirates thanks to the damage from the raid.

41: Aug 4. Hale runs an obstacle course and gets introduced to CEarth stealth tech, with Dansel watching remotely.

44: Aug 18. Dansel (and the audience) is introduced to the VAC-20, a mod of the A-10's Avenger cannon, to be mounted in Quasimodo.

47: 30 July. Dansel recommends Jankowicz be given the Commando rebuilt using salvage from the wrecked mechs from NZ.

66: Nov 15, Oregon. Dansel takes on pirates during the second invasion by Voraz's forces.

84: Nov 16, hijacke dropper renamed "Great Justice". Dansel and company capture a jumpship, by threatening its jump sail (and demonstrating the threat when the Band of the Damned jumper crew talked smack).

111, 113, and 117: Apr 2 and Jan , 2006, NTC. Dansel mentioned in conversation, not present.

118: Dec 18, White House. Dansel now 2LT, at a party being held to celebrate the formation of GDI. Introduced to Sally Ryan, whose coming on to him sends him screaming in terror, if only figuratively. Runs into POTUS while fleeing, volunteering for "whatever off-world mission where you think I might make a contribution" for the purpose of getting away from Sally.

132: May 10, 2006, NTC. Dansel mentioned in conversation, not present except for a brief showing at the end of the post responding to a prank by Staedele

137: Aug 6, Port Krin and surrounding areas. Port Krin taken, Dansel's lance part of the GDI forces defending against Redjack Ryan's forces.

143: Aug 8. Dansel et al defending against a joint attack from several other Antallos city-states. Wrecked mechs turned into bombs to fling at attacking forces, and Dansel's mechs given capes. Attacking city-state forces ruin his "last stand" attempt by surrendering after losing 2/3rds of their force to GDI's firepower (including the gunship Leopard).

162: Aug 11-19. Dansel talks with General Davis, who assigns him to corral captured troops put to GDI use as head of the GDI Foreign Legion. Several attacks on Dansel, all faked to buff his reputation as "the spirit of undying vengeance".

163 Oct. Dansel discussed to the Coordinator by Ulysses Kurita, not present. Sep 1 in Port Krin, Dansel talks with GDI Intel CAPT Swift about Brox's clanner past.

171: Dansel mentioned several places, not present.

178: Jan 5, 2007, Port Krin. Dansel mentioned in regards to a Buron Cav candidate, not present.

182: Dec 6, 2006. GDIFL sim exercise against hostile forces from CEarth fiction (I'm not sure which one, offhand, other than an RTS game). Also talks w/ head of Fire Brands on Dec 29 about disbanding of the group and folding them into the GDIFL. Further training stuff, with speech by Dansel to FL troops at the end of the post.

202: Jan 25, 2007. Dansel mentioned, not present.

219: Mar 26. FL training against GDI tank forces.

222: May 10. Dansel mentioned, Sally Ryan admits she has a crush on him but he's not her boyfriend, contrary to the teasing by Jack Jr.

230: March 16. Dansel mentioned, not present.

243: Jan 20, 2008. More sim training, with the Canopian ambassador playing as part of OpFor.

244: May 1. Dansel reacts to being forced into OCS.

Didn't realize that was active. Fixed!

Ok, thanks. I'll edit in the links tomorrow (saved the whole thing, links included, as a text file), gotta go.

And you may want to look into the flood control setting. Even editing a post triggers it, as I just found out trying to edit this one.