Setting the Itinerary

Gear wrote:May 17, 2005/3020
Drakon lands in, and attacks, Auckland, New Zealand
Dansel Drops a crane on Jankowscki's Stinger.

This seems to be the point where change needs to start coming in, beginning with Dansel.

How about the crash messes up his back and/or legs, forcing either a medical discharge, or the military to put him behind a desk so they can use him for PR efforts. Then he can just fade out of the story with a few occasional mentions before dissapearing entirely.

This brings up the question, who captures Hale and his Hunchback now?

One of the SAS guys that helped trap the Stinger?

Or, alternately, he could survive Auckland as originally written, but then decide that he has burned up a lifetime of pure dumb luck, and gets out at the first opportunity. He already wasn't going anywhere rank-wise because of obesity, so it's not like he had a lot of incentive to stick around.

I know some people are insistent on maiming or killing him, but there are other options that don't have something of a scent of "revenge fic" to them.

Knobby wrote:

Gear wrote:May 17, 2005/3020
Drakon lands in, and attacks, Auckland, New Zealand
Dansel Drops a crane on Jankowscki's Stinger.

This seems to be the point where change needs to start coming in, beginning with Dansel.

How about the crash messes up his back and/or legs, forcing either a medical discharge, or the military to put him behind a desk so they can use him for PR efforts. Then he can just fade out of the story with a few occasional mentions before dissapearing entirely.

This brings up the question, who captures Hale and his Hunchback now?

One of the SAS guys that helped trap the Stinger?

Or, alternately, he could survive Auckland as originally written, but then decide that he has burned up a lifetime of pure dumb luck, and gets out at the first opportunity. He already wasn't going anywhere rank-wise because of obesity, so it's not like he had a lot of incentive to stick around.

I know some people are insistent on maiming or killing him, but there are other options that don't have something of a scent of "revenge fic" to them.

He was standing on top of a falling crane at least twice, probably three times as tall as a battlemech.

You do not get up and walk away from that.

Heck, he shouldn't be getting up ever again after that.

Gear wrote:He was standing on top of a falling crane at least twice, probably three times as tall as a battlemech.

You do not get up and walk away from that.

Heck, he shouldn't be getting up ever again after that.

Which would be a surprise to those (relatively few, admittedly) who have fallen from aircraft at many thousands of feet up without a working parachute and survived.

I'm not saying it's normal or likely, mind you, but it's not totally impossible. Just reaaaaaaly fucking long odds, hence "lifetime of pure dumb luck".

Knobby wrote:

Gear wrote:He was standing on top of a falling crane at least twice, probably three times as tall as a battlemech.

You do not get up and walk away from that.

Heck, he shouldn't be getting up ever again after that.

Which would be a surprise to those (relatively few, admittedly) who have fallen from aircraft at many thousands of feet up without a working parachute and survived.

I'm not saying it's normal or likely, mind you, but it's not totally impossible. Just reaaaaaaly fucking long odds, hence "lifetime of pure dumb luck".

Long odds? I'm pretty sure you're more likely to win the lottery, and then get hit by lightning while being mauled by a panda bear while Johnny plays you off while standing in the middle of the desert on a cloudless day.

Walking away with no damage after falling somewhere between 50 and 80 feet with a couple of hundred tons of sharp pointy metal is basically 'The Author said so' catergory of long odds.

Gear wrote:Walking away with no damage after falling somewhere between 50 and 80 feet with a couple of hundred tons of sharp pointy metal is basically 'The Author said so' catergory of long odds.

Because "The author said so" has never happened in either the Ryanverse or BT... *cough*MiddleEastPeace*cough* *cough*TyraMiraborg*cough*



[edit]
Less snarkily, if "horribly wounded" is how it winds up written I'll deal, but there are more options than just maimery. At least to those who haven't worked themselves up into a froth about a fictional character, anyway.

Gear wrote:This seems to be the point where change needs to start coming in, beginning with Dansel.

How about the crash messes up his back and/or legs, forcing either a medical discharge, or the military to put him behind a desk so they can use him for PR efforts. Then he can just fade out of the story with a few occasional mentions before dissapearing entirely.

This brings up the question, who captures Hale and his Hunchback now?

One of the SAS guys that helped trap the Stinger?

The Aussie SAS ones, you mean? That could work. Or, y'know, the New Zealand SAS, who just happen to be based in Auckland, could actually show up for this little party in their own backyard.
And yes, I am still kind'a bitter about that one almost four years later. By the time I got back on-line from one night to the next, the story had moved beyond the point where I could intercede and any NZSAS contribution was obviated by story-posts that had an overweight American reservist stealing all their thunder. Though the sequence where Dansel was tripping balls during the engagement was a little funny.

Knobby wrote:

Gear wrote:Walking away with no damage after falling somewhere between 50 and 80 feet with a couple of hundred tons of sharp pointy metal is basically 'The Author said so' catergory of long odds.

Because "The author said so" has never happened in either the Ryanverse or BT... *cough*MiddleEastPeace*cough* *cough*TyraMiraborg*cough*



[edit]
Less snarkily, if "horribly wounded" is how it winds up written I'll deal, but there are more options than just maimery. At least to those who haven't worked themselves up into a froth about a fictional character, anyway.

The problem is that Dansel was a decent character who did something awesome, then had a good end doing that something awesome.

Then he turned into the comic relief and basically undid the good writing and characterization that had introduced him. He became like a cartoon, what with magically teleporting into a locker, surviving not only the fall of the crane, being buried in it's wreckage, but being pulled out by a battlemech and thrown to the side.

Where upon he jumped out, climbed the mech and burned a hole in the door and captured it.

It didn't get much better afterward.

Basically, that last scene with the crane falling and he's saying his last words is where Dansel's involvement in this story needs to end.

Whether he survives or not, (I think we should leave it at those last words and then never mention him again.), he should never appear in the story again, with at most, off hand comments resolving his fate.

Trace Coburn wrote:

Gear wrote:This seems to be the point where change needs to start coming in, beginning with Dansel.

How about the crash messes up his back and/or legs, forcing either a medical discharge, or the military to put him behind a desk so they can use him for PR efforts. Then he can just fade out of the story with a few occasional mentions before dissapearing entirely.

This brings up the question, who captures Hale and his Hunchback now?

One of the SAS guys that helped trap the Stinger?

The Aussie SAS ones, you mean? That could work. Or, y'know, the New Zealand SAS, who just happen to be based in Auckland, could actually show up for this little party in their own backyard.
And yes, I am still kind'a bitter about that one almost four years later. By the time I got back on-line from one night to the next, the story had moved beyond the point where I could intercede and any NZSAS contribution was obviated by story-posts that had an overweight American reservist stealing all their thunder. Though the sequence where Dansel was tripping balls during the engagement was a little funny.

I was just going by the story. Since we're changing so much already, I'm sure that can be changed.

Gear wrote:Whether he survives or not, (I think we should leave it at those last words and then never mention him again.), he should never appear in the story again, with at most, off hand comments resolving his fate.

I never said that Dansel shouldn't go. At first I thought he was okay, but to me started getting wanky around the time of the second invasion of CEarth, and by the time of the Port Krin invasion I thought he had gone beyond redemption as far as plot goes.

If he's going to be sent away, I just want it to be more definitive than "never speak of him again" with an off-screen killing being his ultimate fate. The attitude he showed before getting wanked suggested to me that "okay, I did my part, now fuck this shit" wouldn't have been too far out of character for him.

On the subject of a non-Dansel AEWAB, as I recall more than a few bits involved him after the initial attack in NZ, and not all of them can just be cut out entirely if not going for "start from scratch". I'd have to read through the story thread to refresh my memory of how much he actually participated after NZ, but without going back to the proverbial square one it's probably going to be a lot more problematic than just "cut that shit out".

Rather than rewrite his fate or ignore him just have Dansel suffer an "accident"; in fact, have his reputation kill him -have Comstar or Samsonov arrange to have him assassinated just prior to the invasion of Antallos in an attempt to damage the GDI's morale.

Knobby wrote:

Gear wrote:Whether he survives or not, (I think we should leave it at those last words and then never mention him again.), he should never appear in the story again, with at most, off hand comments resolving his fate.

I never said that Dansel shouldn't go. At first I thought he was okay, but to me started getting wanky around the time of the second invasion of CEarth, and by the time of the Port Krin invasion I thought he had gone beyond redemption as far as plot goes.

If he's going to be sent away, I just want it to be more definitive than "never speak of him again" with an off-screen killing being his ultimate fate. The attitude he showed before getting wanked suggested to me that "okay, I did my part, now fuck this shit" wouldn't have been too far out of character for him.

Off screen killing? Dansel died on screen by standing on top of a collapsing crane and said his final words.

Then he got brought back to life as a sort of living cartoon by teleporting him from the top of the crane, to a locker room inside the crane. Why would a crane even have a locker room?

Go back and read it. He died, and this new character with the same name, but very different personality appeared afterward.

Dansel was perfectly written for what he was, and he should have stayed dead after his heroic sacrifice.

Not get resurrected as a cheap comedic side kick of the story.

It's like a character dragging a nuke into a mine to save a city, stands next to it as the nuke counts down to 1, the camera cuts away to show the mine collapsing, then the character shoving a few rocks aside at the mine opening.

It was terrible then, it's terrible now, and cheapens the entire story.

On the subject of a non-Dansel AEWAB, as I recall more than a few bits involved him after the initial attack in NZ, and not all of them can just be cut out entirely if not going for "start from scratch". I'd have to read through the story thread to refresh my memory of how much he actually participated after NZ, but without going back to the proverbial square one it's probably going to be a lot more problematic than just "cut that shit out".

Then we rewrite them. Cartoon Dansel is neither needed nor wanted in this story.

Hey, pop quiz, how many people have ever been in an gantry crane intended for port container operations? You know, the ones where the top mounted engine room has lockers, and usually some form of crappy mattress in a corner so people can try to crash for a bit during long operations somewhere out of the frikking winds you get at 200 feet off the ground without having to climb 200 feet down a damned ladder only to have to climb back up the danged thing 2 hours later when your next union-mandated turn at the controls comes around?

I actually put a significant amount of thought into that scene and the layout of the engine room in question, and it's especially aggravating to have it dismissed out of hand by people who don't even properly reference the story thread to do so. At most I could be accused of using dramatic license to ensure that the individual lockers were actually large enough to fit a human body for the follow up scene.


As to surviving being overly lucky, Kai Allard frakking Liao on Alyina. That is all.




NZSAS can be easily substituted, that was never intended to be insulting to anyone's sensibilities, simply a case of them not actually being in the right place at the right time. NZAS would have been over wherever the hell they're normally supposed to be and presumably responding to the Hermes supporting the pirate grunts, not running around a port ensuring that their gear wasn't 'lost' because they had just arrived for ye old multi-national training shindig. Not that I actually give half a crap about insulting anyone's sensibilities mind you, but if Dansel is going to by consensus be removed from the story there's no point in keeping the low intensity prank war going anyway.

I actually did review that scene a bit ago, and was about to point out the same thing.

Right now I'm compiling a list of the posts where Dansel is either present or mentioned, for the purpose of at least knowing what needs changing for his removal. Still working on it though, on page 8 of 10 for the story thread. I'll post the results here when I'm done.

And because I have bursts of OCDishness I completed the list, with brief summaries of the bits regarding Dansel. Since as a new member I can't post external links for another 3 days, barring a tweak of forum permissions y'all will have to wait for the direct links to the posts.

1: Dansel introduced, meets Aussie SAS to whom he explains they're short on everything but bodies.

3: Dansel in the crane, dropping a container on Jankowicz's Stinger.

14: Dansel regains consciousness after falling from the crane, wrapped in whatever cushioning stuff was available in the crane's engine room he used to ride out the collapse. Climbs up on Hale's Hunchback and cuts open the access hatch of a poorly maintained 'Mech.

16: Hale is told to exit the mech, or find out that people fare no better against a Molotov cocktail (which Dansel bluffed about) better than vehicles. Post-attack, a medic administers drugs that have an averse reaction that puts him into a manic state where he and his Oz SAS buddies vandalize the NZ SAS barracks. Dansel talks via teleconference with the POTUS, mentioning his advancement's pudge pause.

19: Move to Ft Irwin NTC, May 20 2005/3020. Dansel put on a PT regime to get him out of pudge pause, guarded by troops from NZ SAS reprisals for the earlier vandalism of their barracks. "Ding" Chavez asks for tips on piloting Hale's mech, dubbed Quasimodo by Dansel et al on the first guard shift in a ceremony only suggested at by the scene of the aftermath, and does some non-specific shooting the shit.

37: May 22, still at NTC. Dansel gets a more formal introduction to Hale, whom he warns about the NZ SAS having a serious hate-on for pirates thanks to the damage from the raid.

41: Aug 4. Hale runs an obstacle course and gets introduced to CEarth stealth tech, with Dansel watching remotely.

44: Aug 18. Dansel (and the audience) is introduced to the VAC-20, a mod of the A-10's Avenger cannon, to be mounted in Quasimodo.

47: 30 July. Dansel recommends Jankowicz be given the Commando rebuilt using salvage from the wrecked mechs from NZ.

66: Nov 15, Oregon. Dansel takes on pirates during the second invasion by Voraz's forces.

84: Nov 16, hijacke dropper renamed "Great Justice". Dansel and company capture a jumpship, by threatening its jump sail (and demonstrating the threat when the Band of the Damned jumper crew talked smack).

111, 113, and 117: Apr 2 and Jan , 2006, NTC. Dansel mentioned in conversation, not present.

118: Dec 18, White House. Dansel now 2LT, at a party being held to celebrate the formation of GDI. Introduced to Sally Ryan, whose coming on to him sends him screaming in terror, if only figuratively. Runs into POTUS while fleeing, volunteering for "whatever off-world mission where you think I might make a contribution" for the purpose of getting away from Sally.

132: May 10, 2006, NTC. Dansel mentioned in conversation, not present except for a brief showing at the end of the post responding to a prank by Staedele

137: Aug 6, Port Krin and surrounding areas. Port Krin taken, Dansel's lance part of the GDI forces defending against Redjack Ryan's forces.

143: Aug 8. Dansel et al defending against a joint attack from several other Antallos city-states. Wrecked mechs turned into bombs to fling at attacking forces, and Dansel's mechs given capes. Attacking city-state forces ruin his "last stand" attempt by surrendering after losing 2/3rds of their force to GDI's firepower (including the gunship Leopard).

162: Aug 11-19. Dansel talks with General Davis, who assigns him to corral captured troops put to GDI use as head of the GDI Foreign Legion. Several attacks on Dansel, all faked to buff his reputation as "the spirit of undying vengeance".

163 Oct. Dansel discussed to the Coordinator by Ulysses Kurita, not present. Sep 1 in Port Krin, Dansel talks with GDI Intel CAPT Swift about Brox's clanner past.

171: Dansel mentioned several places, not present.

178: Jan 5, 2007, Port Krin. Dansel mentioned in regards to a Buron Cav candidate, not present.

182: Dec 6, 2006. GDIFL sim exercise against hostile forces from CEarth fiction (I'm not sure which one, offhand, other than an RTS game). Also talks w/ head of Fire Brands on Dec 29 about disbanding of the group and folding them into the GDIFL. Further training stuff, with speech by Dansel to FL troops at the end of the post.

202: Jan 25, 2007. Dansel mentioned, not present.

219: Mar 26. FL training against GDI tank forces.

222: May 10. Dansel mentioned, Sally Ryan admits she has a crush on him but he's not her boyfriend, contrary to the teasing by Jack Jr.

230: March 16. Dansel mentioned, not present.

243: Jan 20, 2008. More sim training, with the Canopian ambassador playing as part of OpFor.

244: May 1. Dansel reacts to being forced into OCS.

Didn't realize that was active. Fixed!

Ok, thanks. I'll edit in the links tomorrow (saved the whole thing, links included, as a text file), gotta go.

And you may want to look into the flood control setting. Even editing a post triggers it, as I just found out trying to edit this one.

consequences wrote:Hey, pop quiz, how many people have ever been in an gantry crane intended for port container operations? You know, the ones where the top mounted engine room has lockers, and usually some form of crappy mattress in a corner so people can try to crash for a bit during long operations somewhere out of the frikking winds you get at 200 feet off the ground without having to climb 200 feet down a damned ladder only to have to climb back up the danged thing 2 hours later when your next union-mandated turn at the controls comes around?

I envisioned a cot, some shelves, and a minifridge. What was written gave the impression of a large room, with multiple closet sized lockers so overweight reservists could easily hide inside.

Far more that would be needed for 2 or 3 people for constant driving of the crane.

The giant lockers just completely killed it for me. Then having him survive a 200 foot fall in a collapsing crane, then being thown around by a battlemech just brought it back to life as a zombie, to kill it for me again when he just popped up, ran to the mech, climbed it like a spider monkey, and then cut through the back door despite Hale trying to shake him off, and capturing it.

The drug interaction thing was basically "violating" the corpse of whatever positive feelings I ever had for post crane Dansel.

I actually put a significant amount of thought into that scene and the layout of the engine room in question, and it's especially aggravating to have it dismissed out of hand by people who don't even properly reference the story thread to do so. At most I could be accused of using dramatic license to ensure that the individual lockers were actually large enough to fit a human body for the follow up scene.

You should feel bad of what you turned Dansel into. In fact, the difference between pre and post crane falling is so great, post crane Dansel is really a Dansel In Name Only.

As to surviving being overly lucky, Kai Allard frakking Liao on Alyina. That is all.

Kai is at least physically fit enough to escape his deadly situations, and has a history of badasse and luck to back him up.

NZSAS can be easily substituted, that was never intended to be insulting to anyone's sensibilities, simply a case of them not actually being in the right place at the right time. NZAS would have been over wherever the hell they're normally supposed to be and presumably responding to the Hermes supporting the pirate grunts, not running around a port ensuring that their gear wasn't 'lost' because they had just arrived for ye old multi-national training shindig. Not that I actually give half a crap about insulting anyone's sensibilities mind you, but if Dansel is going to by consensus be removed from the story there's no point in keeping the low intensity prank war going anyway.

The prank war was also vastly overdone and rather tacky.

I liked Dansel, he did his duty, did something awesome, and died riding the top of that 200 foot crane to pin that mech down.

Dansel In Name Only on the other hand, I can't stand. I always skipped the DINO parts after the first few of them. It's also why I never liked the Legion either.

Edited my previous Dansel timeline post to include URLs for the relevant story thread posts, now that the forum privileges now allow new accounts to post external links right away.

Sorry about the rant, but DINO just cranks my gears.

I am willing to accept it if he lives, injured or not. I just don't want to see him ever again.

consequences wrote:NZSAS can be easily substituted, that was never intended to be insulting to anyone's sensibilities, simply a case of them not actually being in the right place at the right time. NZAS would have been over wherever the hell they're normally supposed to be and presumably responding to the Hermes supporting the pirate grunts, not running around a port ensuring that their gear wasn't 'lost' because they had just arrived for ye old multi-national training shindig. Not that I actually give half a crap about insulting anyone's sensibilities mind you, but if Dansel is going to by consensus be removed from the story there's no point in keeping the low intensity prank war going anyway.

a] When I said 'a little bitter', I meant 'I find that irksome', not 'that drives me into uncontrollable fits of NERD REAG'. Part of that is because...
b] you're right, and part of my being irked comes from the story-posts coming so fast back then that any piece I might have written at the time about why the Kiwi Sass were elsewhere was vastly overtaken by other events. I may still end up writing that explanation into Second Auckland as a retrospective fill-in, when/if that piece ever gets finished.
c] Dansel's a fun character in measured doses, both pre- and post-crane, and indeed I enjoyed all of the pieces you contributed to the original BTRR; similarly, the prank war had a certain charm for a while. That said, I think Gear's got a point about how both gags got a little worn-out over time.

There are snippets that I would be entirely fine with trimming or eliminating entirely because looking back I feel (more than)slightly ashamed about having written them, and am entirely willing to figure out how to remove unessential bits. If the call is for less Dansel in the future, that is easy to oblige.

In the grand scheme of things, changing the AuSAS to NZSAS doesn't change much that matters. Worst case the prank war can be switched to one between the US Army Transportation Corps and the NZSAS without much practical effect, or entirely dropped. Partially that was a lack of awareness of the finer details of ANZAC armed forces back when we started this thing.


As to the engine room, until I actually was near one, I had no frame of reference to the roughly 20x 30x 15 room that is needed to drive a thousand-plus tons of metal at truly slow speeds on rail tracks. Well, the whole room isn't needed as such, but it's helpful if you want to be able to get at the engine from any angle for essential maintenance and repairs without contorting yourself into barely possible positions, and unlike naval vessels or combat vehicles there's not much reason to keep the space as compact as possible. If anything building bigger adds more of the essential counterweight needed to balance a 50-80 ton load suspended under the whole lifting apparatus several hundred feet offshore.


As to Kai vs Dansel, how physically fit does one have to be to survive getting punched off a cliff by a seven foot tall borderline superhuman after a prior beating? How fit do you have to be to survive going off a cliff under another mech to implausibly have your descent halt before reaching the 84 meter crush depth? How does being physically fit affect your abiliity to survive what is essentially a building collapse? As a side note, it is entirely possible to have too many muscles to pass the basic crappy US military body fat test as long as your neck isn't thick enough. This wasn't actually the intention with Dansel, but the immediate jump from 'being flagged by weight control' to 'completely out of shape' is kind of annoying.


Concerning other matters, Red Rabbit was actually written, or at least published, two years after Bear and the Dragon, and was a blatantly hamhanded retcon to shove Ryan into a historical Cold War situation that adds essentially nothing to the series except to take shots at British Health Care and try to say 'haha we always new the Soviet Union was going to implode like a bitch'. It's also essentially impossible to reconcile with the 2005 ISOT, we would have to go with a 1997ish, or even a 1993 extremely fucked up Clancy timeline in order for it to work.

consequences wrote:Concerning other matters, Red Rabbit was actually written, or at least published, two years after Bear and the Dragon, and was a blatantly hamhanded retcon to shove Ryan into a historical Cold War situation that adds essentially nothing to the series except to take shots at British Health Care and try to say 'haha we always new the Soviet Union was going to implode like a bitch'. It's also essentially impossible to reconcile with the 2005 ISOT, we would have to go with a 1997ish, or even a 1993 extremely fucked up Clancy timeline in order for it to work.

You'll get no argument from me: AFAIK, An Entry with a Bang writers have always ignored the events of Red Rabbit, and IMO the story was far better off for it.

RR was, admittedly, kinda clunky, but is it really going to be much of an issue here? IIRC the only one involved in it that's also given any importance in this fic is Ryan himself, and he's certainly not going to be talking about it. He takes classification issues deadly serious, and I don't recall any mention of the defection being declassified in canon Clancy. It certainly hasn't passed the 50 year mark that's usually the declassification point for stuff that's going to eventually make it to the public (by design at least, not counting leaks like those done by Kealty's minions of Ryan's Red October or Colombia activities).

A couple things you may want to consider:

1) sketch out is a rough timeline. for example if you want CEarth to be able to make their own jumpships by 30XX, and feel that it will take them Y years to develop it, then 'first contact' has to occur by (30XX - Y years) at the latest.

working out how long it takes CEarth to start producing their own Fusion engines/dropships/primative Jumpships/Jumpships/'Mechs/ASFs/PA and BA/ect may help cut down on later arguments and editing.

2) you may want to make (and sticky) a list of tech and when CEarth develops them: (relatively) quickly/in a decade/2 or 3 decades/over 3 decades/only with a lot of help from IS sources/never.

People can still write about research on stuff in the Never catagory, it just means that they'll never get any effective/non-theoretical results regardless of how much time/money/resources is poured into said project.

Tech scheduling will depend greatly on what we bring back from Columbus, Helm, and New Dallas.

So we're going to need to get those ducks lined up in a row before we can determine when we start rolling jumpships out.

Gear wrote:Tech scheduling will depend greatly on what we bring back from Columbus, Helm, and New Dallas.

So we're going to need to get those ducks lined up in a row before we can determine when we start rolling jumpships out.

It will also depend on industry. No matter what, Jump Ships will take decades...

Along other lines, it is acceptable for you guys if you'd like to start migrating the story over and open other discussion threads...

I've got no problems with that plan of action.

you may have answered this one and I just missed it, are you and/or others going to review submissions before posting and where do you submit potential entries?

Neither has been addressed yet, though the review thing already existed for things as they were going on before this forum was created. Whether that review system will be revised or not is another issue.

I don't think we're quite up to the point of taking actual submissions just yet, though, so it's not quite a "top of the list" priority.

And BTW, Psycho, is there a way of fixing the forum flood control so it doesn't apply to edits of existing posts? That's kind of annoying...

I imagine a story review thread will be made where submissions will be posted for review and beta'ing, with final approval/rejection being in the hands of the authors themselves.